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Post by Julia on Nov 15, 2011 8:02:26 GMT -5
In the interest of educating myself, and maybe others who don't know.. I'm trying to figure out appaloosa genetics. As far as I've seen, the white patterning is shown as "LP." a Homozygous appaloosa then should display as "LpLp." If a horse has LpLp then you would expect both parents to be appys of some sort, would both parents be leopard appaloosas or blanket, or does that really not matter? Next question... I've seen the genotype as "PATN" the only thing I've really found on this is that it's used to describe the blanket or snowcap appies more than the leopard. So if I understand it all correctly, LP denotes a Leopard appaloosa, and PATN denotes a blanket-type appaloosa. Also read this: A horse can actually ahve PATN in their genetics, and not display appaloosa markings at all, they need the LP to display. Okay... i just need someone to clarify appaloosa genetics.. Cuz I think i'm on the way to understanding them, but I truly just don't know. Thanks gals.
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Post by Tessa on Nov 15, 2011 8:11:32 GMT -5
I have no clue about appaloosa genetics. That's the one thing I haven't tried to tackle yet lol. Good luck with your search hun and Im looking forward to seeing the answers on this one.
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Post by May (AUT) on Nov 15, 2011 8:13:06 GMT -5
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Post by Julia on Nov 15, 2011 8:17:20 GMT -5
Thanks May... That is actually the site I was reading from! lol. Going to have to do some more research on this one.
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Post by Stephanie on Nov 15, 2011 9:22:49 GMT -5
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Post by Julia on Nov 15, 2011 9:52:04 GMT -5
LOL - I was looking at that first site earlier this morning!1 I booked-marked it to read... Only thing i don't like about the second one is you have to buy a subscription to get the site contents. maybe when I have more mulah coming in Okay... So after doing some more research, Something I said in the first post was true. the "LP" is required for expression of Appaloosa markings. This is called the Leopard Complex. So if you think of the entire appaloosa genetics system like an umbrella, this sucker (LP) needs to be at the top, and underneath that are other genotypes to dictate HOW the markings appear. Also.. If there are NO other genotypes, the LP shows as a varnish roan Now I mentioned PATN earlier, and there are actually 2 versions of this. PATN1 and PATN2. They are both responsible for the leopard and blanket patterns. So a Bay blanket appaloosa could look like this: Ee/AA/Lplp/PATN-2 (both parents were appaloosa's for this result) I learned all this from this site. VERY helpful.. You gals may wanna take a read through. I'm still figuring out the actual writing of genotype... So i think LpLp would be a Homozygous, Lplp would be heterozygous. likewise with PATN1/2. Now I really wish I still had my notes from biology when we studied genotypes. Okay, adding to this to get things sorted out in my own head. LpLp & Lplp = Varnish roan... No spotting whatsoever - Required for appaloosa markings to show; regardless of whether the horse has PATN1 or 2. With Lplp PATN-1/patn-1 = Leopard appy with varnish PATN-1/PATN-1 = Leopard appy without varnish PATN-2/patn-2 = Blanket appy with varnish PATN-2/PATN-2 = Blanket appy without varnish with LpLp PATN-1/patn-1 = varnish - not spots PATN-1/PATN-1 = few spot? PATN-2/patn-2 = Snowcap? (not sure if that's the accurate name for this marking) PATN-2/PATN-2 = no differenace than PATN-2/patn-2
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Post by Nessa (GER) on Nov 15, 2011 10:14:50 GMT -5
pretty confusing but also pretty interesting well, just thought I might ask you something... someone had a breeding with my stallion Cappalaro Star. Their mare is a Spotted Blanket, Cappy is a near leopard. Because the mares owner has trouble finding pictures for a spotted blanket foal she asked : can the foal be a snowcap? I feel it can not be a snowcap out of a spotted blanket and a near leopard. Do you think this can be?
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Post by Julia on Nov 15, 2011 10:22:34 GMT -5
a near leopard would look something like this, i think: Lplp/PATN-1/patn-1 the spotted blanket would look something like: Lplp/Patn-2/patn-2
ahh.. I'll have to figure out how to do the combining the old school way.. I've forgotten! lol. give me a few and i'll letcha know.
EditL
Okay.. The snowcap foal's genotype would have to look something like LpLp/PATN2/patn2
If you had any PATN1 in to the mix, the foal becomes a varnish or few spot. Both parents would need to be blanket appaloosa's for her to get a snowcap foal. I /think/ I could be completely wrong.
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Post by Vinny[Lisha] on Nov 15, 2011 10:25:35 GMT -5
You've got a pretty good idea of appaloosa genetics, but I am going to elaborate just a little bit Lp does indeed control the ability of a pattern to be expressed. So if a horse is 'LL' then it has no pattern. Lp is what we call an incomplete dominant gene, so the heterozygous version is half way between 'LL' and 'LpLp'. LpL gives us our lovely spotted blanket and would only require one appaloosa parent. Now if we get LpLp then we have a solid looking-blanket, with no spots, which would require TWO appaloosa parents. The solid-blanket would be snowcap or few-spot. A single LP enabled the appaloosa characteristics (mottled skin , white sclera, ect) even if it does not express an appaloosa pattern. PATN actually controls the size of the pattern. So, if I am not mistaken, what you would call a Leopard is a horse that WOULD have a blanket, but the PATN is extensive so it extends all the way to the head of our appaloosa. Varnish can be present in any appaloosa's genetic make-up, even if it is not expressed. As long as a horse has ONE Lp gene then Varnish can be expressed. As a foal, an appaloosa doesn't actually express Varnish, but as it ages Varnish extends. It will start to be visible around the edges of the appaloosa pattern. So as a foal the horse will appear a normal appaloosa and after it ages it will give the appearance of a roan horse, even those it technically isn't. I hoped I helped a little but ^^
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Post by Lin Ryder on Nov 15, 2011 10:48:18 GMT -5
Wow how confusing is that? LOL
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Post by Julia on Nov 15, 2011 10:50:40 GMT -5
So I guess Nessa's stud's foal could possibly be a snowcap blanket... depending on how far the PATN displayed.
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Post by Nessa (GER) on Nov 15, 2011 10:51:35 GMT -5
phew sounds really complicated Thanks for helping btw, you guys really are the best Well, my stallion is this one, Im confident that the pictured horse really is a near leopard, can you confirm this? www.gestuet-nereus.de/pferde/steckbrief.php?pferd=cappalarostarAlso, anybody here who can tell me a proper genotype for him? Im around Ee/Aa/Lplp for him, could that be true? How could I write down a matching PATN for him ? Any ideas? --- The mare is this one : fuerstenwalde.bplaced.net/hollywoodshuffle.htmlIm not sure if the color which is written down for her is the right one for the horse in the pictures though. Her owner wants the foal out of these two guys to be a snowcap. Is that realistic? Well, I wont tell her what to do, since its her foal, but I really need to know if a snowcpa-foal could even happen
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Post by Julia on Nov 15, 2011 10:55:56 GMT -5
From my research, and from what Vinnie said above... the resulting foal would probably be LpLp, and that could result in a snowcap/solid blanket. It might not cover just the rump, since there are PATN's in the genotype for both parents... so it might be an extended blanket. That's actually what I think your boy looks like... extended blanket, but I could be wrong, I am REALLY bad at appy markings
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Post by Nessa (GER) on Nov 15, 2011 10:59:55 GMT -5
hm, extended blanket, sounds interesting and could be right *thinks* I need to do a bit more research what an extended blanket could look like. The real-life stallion in the pictures is Mr Leo Peppy Bar, btw, but I did not manage to find out his true color :/
edit : I think "blanket" for Cappalaro Star is right. The more I saw of that pattern, the more I think its more matching to the pattern my stallion has. Can somebody confirm my stallion to be a spotted blanket one?
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Post by Ashlee on Nov 15, 2011 14:24:08 GMT -5
Vinny probably did the best explaining things to what I've always understood. PATN controls how extensive a pattern is. So a horse that is Lplp with an extensive PATN would likely be Leopard while a horse that is Lplp with minimal PATN would likely only have a small blanket or even no spots at all and just mottled skin and striped hooves. I'll say it time and time again, Hunt and Jump has really helped me understand genetics and they've done a ton of research on Appaloosa genetics, and only announce or add things into the game until it is scientifically proven by a reliable source. There are some great articles on the Hajinc Forum about Appaloosa genetics including resources and citations, you should check it out.
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